tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2328566982075412654.post1163700100508414667..comments2024-03-27T23:35:31.191+00:00Comments on Devon Wargames Group: Sword & Spear - Rome v Pyrrhusjcrallshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03641911656118603234noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2328566982075412654.post-7468134874484701232015-08-12T22:36:57.492+01:002015-08-12T22:36:57.492+01:00" Still we raised £97.18 in the whip round fo..." Still we raised £97.18 in the whip round for JJ's widow "<br /><br />But I'm not dead...<br /><br />JJTerrementhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04342792166035213324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2328566982075412654.post-22413847567619640242015-07-01T15:25:05.243+01:002015-07-01T15:25:05.243+01:00Hi Chris
I think I wrote on TMP that if a game org...Hi Chris<br />I think I wrote on TMP that if a game organizer put on a game with these rules then I would be happy to play them however I wouldn't choose them myself for a game I ran. I started back in the WRG 5th edition rules era and followed them all the way to DBM which put me off Ancients for 20 years and like you I have bought or tried all the sets that came out in the meantime. I have to admit that I even spent around £70 on Impetus and all its army lists only to not like them either. I switched to 28mm and happily played WAB which without Super heroes was quiet enjoyable however when that died we then saw the 3 new boys come out. I skipped Hail Caesar for some reason which I no longer remember and plumped for Clash of Empires as it was the closest to WAB and it was fine however I joined in a game of Hail Caesar at the club ( it was either that or something with guns and wheels) and found it very enjoyable. So I dug out all the old 15mm armies and this is now my rule set of choice and the 28mm have gone back under the bed in their place.<br />Why do I like this set ? The random C&C, some limited purpose for having generals , the army lists , unit combat and removal rather than figures, simplified movement , little quirks in various troop types making them different rather than just a block of heavy infantry , skirmishers have an effect without being super weapons. For a rule set marketed at 28mm they work just as well for 15mm with appropriate distance deductions . <br />Most of the ancients AAR's on this site use Hail Caesar. Mr Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03657702949814996671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2328566982075412654.post-44651000546080468762015-06-28T15:16:09.510+01:002015-06-28T15:16:09.510+01:00Nice run down of the rules in play thanks. I haven...Nice run down of the rules in play thanks. I haven't had a chance to play them yet but hope to do so soon. I have dabbled for a long time too and spent way to much on rules and armies that don't see the light of day. Noting that you were not keen to give them another run, what rules do you prefer for the simulation aspect? If I can be so bold as to ask ( especially for 15mm games) chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13028920392149987916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2328566982075412654.post-41096605039092331132015-06-16T13:18:50.356+01:002015-06-16T13:18:50.356+01:00I think the rules do a good job of capturing what ...I think the rules do a good job of capturing what you call training and will power by the discipline rating plus some of the special attirbutes that make it easier for some troops to charge, etc. Making complicated plans much harder to carry out with out lots of luck really does make the battles feel much closer to the impression I get of actual ancient warfare.<br /><br /> Weapons are still important but end up less so than in many other rules. The idea that foot needs to be careful in maneuvering in the face of mounted doesn't bother me since this does seem to have been a real effect. In addition, even if HF with pikes or spear do not have an activation die, their base strength of 4 still leaves them reasonably resistant to cavalry with a base strength of 3 as the combat continues if the cavalry charge them frontally.<br /><br />The discipline system which allows units with better (lower) discipline numbers also means that better troops are more likely to have the initiative as each player moves his units in ascending order of the activation die assigned to the unit. While having a 6 means the unit also moves after other units with lower activation dice assigned so may not even get to use that 6. The command decisions are very subtle with many considerations to take into account.<br /><br />ChrisChris Burrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07006977565794265038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2328566982075412654.post-70606152116049128742015-06-16T12:16:21.497+01:002015-06-16T12:16:21.497+01:00Great looking game, and nice to read an "in u...Great looking game, and nice to read an "in use" review of the rules.fireymonkeyboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05833974263127787678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2328566982075412654.post-87372592370067088392015-06-15T23:28:46.230+01:002015-06-15T23:28:46.230+01:00Hi Chris, Thanks for your comments, for a while we...Hi Chris, Thanks for your comments, for a while we did forget that the non active player should allocate his dice as well before any action but half way through we remembered , otherwise we followed as per your comment but at times we were a bit liberal on the movement order by discipline level unless it was critical as we wanted to try out as much as possible in the time available. You will see above in my combat opinions that we were allocating activation dice to defensive targets prior to action (after we remembered).<br /><br />Hi Vince, our views are similar ( I am not sure who should be the most concerned ! ) I am happy to see some units not move or be sluggish and this is best handled by us wargamers through Command and Control ( which oddly would have been very lacking at the time) . I wont comment on your skirmisher piece as its identical to my opinion.As to your final bit then I have a slightly differing view, in my opinion you need to have the will to fight , now this is frequently gained through training and by building confidence in your equipment and comrades.Having better or more effective weapons does have an effect especially if you already have experience in their use and the correct training. Warrior cultures also had , for the want of better words this late at night , pride/honour/fear of disgrace and even tradition. You were expected to fight , only weaklings need to be taught how to ( apart from basic weapon handling of course). if you are still not convinced then ask why did the Romans steal the ideas of anyone who had better equipment than them( and then trained in their use ) . So a mix of all 3 , Training, Willpower and Weapons.Plus experience ( Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms )Mr Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03657702949814996671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2328566982075412654.post-52210852298699442002015-06-15T23:26:37.020+01:002015-06-15T23:26:37.020+01:00I've played these rules at PAW and really like...I've played these rules at PAW and really like the unpredictability of them. They give a very good ebb and flow of battle which sounds about right if you read historical accounts.Warrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15446204754512423591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2328566982075412654.post-72534456889919680102015-06-15T20:00:34.488+01:002015-06-15T20:00:34.488+01:00From Steve's description of movement it wasn&#...From Steve's description of movement it wasn't clear whether you were doing this correctly or not, but hopefully you were. The player with initiative (more activation dice) rolls and places his dice first followed by his oppoenent doing so. The units are then moved in ascending die order (3s, then 4s, etc) by each player with the player with initiative moving his first before the opposing player if they have the same activation die value.<br /><br />Light troops are handled very differently in these rules than in other ancient/medieval rules. I'm not sure this makes it a poorer simulation. In these rules using skirmishers requires a lot more conscious effort since they don't automatically get to evade when something charges them. They can still be effective espeically on flanks and in terrainbut they require more thought to use well unlike hordes of skirmishers in DBM or FoG.<br /><br />ChrisChris Burrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07006977565794265038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2328566982075412654.post-35449947502697488242015-06-15T19:49:40.591+01:002015-06-15T19:49:40.591+01:00Now that activation method has possibilities. I li...Now that activation method has possibilities. I like the element of uncertainty and the many command and control choices the player is forced to make. It also allows you to set everything up perfectly and find that half your troops stand round doing bo-diddily. It happened, especially in the ancient period and is difficult to reflect with the birds eye view and perfect knowledge of your troops morale and stamina that a wargame gives you.<br /><br />The skirmishers rules just appear wrong to me. I prefer rules where skirmishers fight each other and the winners go on to knock the "fresh" status from some enemy close combat units. You know, that irritating "ping, ping", that does not kill units, but weakens the good stuff. As to not being able to interpenetrate skirmishers, I think it was very much a case of one unit wanting to get out of the way and the other one coming through anyway. Skirmishers generally wanted to "rally back" on their supports. Equally, when something heavy charged them, they tended to evade and being faster, usually got away.<br /><br />Watching the game, I thought the rules gave a historically correct looking game, with nice lines and action occuring in some places and not others. It is a pity they didn't appear to play so well.<br /><br />I have played ancients for 30 odd years and have continually been on the quest for "the right" set of rules. I've not found them yet and that isn't helped by the fact that no one alive has ever seen an ancient battle and the accounts we have usually don't give the detail wargamers would like or are decidedly dodgy and often second or third hand. <br /><br />Personally I think that the length of the "pointy stick" a man was carrying made much less difference than the training & experience of the chap wielding it. Add to this a command and control based set of rules and you probably aren't too far wrong. It might not be exactly how it happened, but we will never really know and at least you get a good game. <br /><br />VinceVincehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691369848035290908noreply@blogger.com